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Debra Tao
Perkone Caldari State
39
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 03:20:00 -
[1] - Quote
VV and Mynna are making a good point, it's not all about isk sink and faucet. I would bet that the income disparity in EVE is tremendous, while the mission runers, miners and low SP chars in null have an income ranging from 10 to 30/40 mil isk per hour there is that tiny portion of players and alliances that have a huge income.
You just have to read some blogs and read scc-lounge to see that a tiny portion of the player base can make billions each day. On top of that there are these major alliances that profit from moon goo to stockpile isk... All that act as an isk sink because the major part of the isk that goes into the wallet of Mynna, the CFC and so on won't be reinjected into the economy anytime soon.
FW has demonstrated this... The FW acted as a (temporary) transfer of wealth from rich traders buying implants in bulk to FWers. Thus making the average income per hour of FW grunts much higher than usually (coming from a mere 20-40 mil isk per hour to hundreds of isk per hour) and disrupting temporarily the PLEX market. It was no surprise to see the PLEX price fall back to a more reasonable price after the fix.
To sum up my thoughts there are probably too much isk faucets right now but it's not as big of a problem as some may think, the inflation has been mostly related to the drone region nerf. Removing bounty from high sec rats (giving more LPs in compensation) and maybe diminishing bounties in null (i am sure CCP can compensate that in some ways) seem like reasonnable ideas.
I don't see how you can say that bumping manufacturing fees in high sec will have "negligeable effects" on the market. |

Debra Tao
Perkone Caldari State
39
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 03:25:00 -
[2] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:
Also: Is there a realistic summary/equation that sums up the net results of ship losses in EVE?
Ship losses aren't an isk sink, there is no isk destroyed when you lose a ship only value the same way that a miner doesn't create any isk but creates value. Actually due to the insurance system it's more of an isk faucet than anything else and to be honest i don't find that system really interesting so i wouldn't mind if CCP just delete that. |

Debra Tao
Perkone Caldari State
39
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 03:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:Debra Tao wrote:RavenPaine wrote:
Also: Is there a realistic summary/equation that sums up the net results of ship losses in EVE?
Ship losses aren't an isk sink, there is no isk destroyed when you lose a ship only value the same way that a miner doesn't create any isk but creates value. Actually due to the insurance system it's more of an isk faucet than anything else and to be honest i don't find that system really interesting so i wouldn't mind if CCP just delete that. I agree with you on the technical application of the words 'sink' and 'faucet'. Value loss is a good term for ship loss. My point is though, isn't value loss essentially the same thing? And doesn't it have the same leveling effect on macro economics? Also: Add pod loss to my previous list. Implants = value loss in the same way.
The thing CCP is trying to do when balancing isk sink and faucet is controlling inflation. When you lose a ship you wil have to buy a new one thus giving isk to manufacturers, explorers and whatnot so you will just transfer part of your isk to those people while CCP will only take a marginal cut from taxes. If these people get richer thanks to your loss they may buy new stuff thus rising prices while transferring the isk to yet another person in game... So ship losses actually tend to increase the circulation of isk ingame and if the circulation of a currency tend to increase then the inflation will increase too because everyone will have a higher income so will buy new stuff and so on...
So ship losses create an isk faucet (the insurance) that is clearly not compensate by the taxes. On top of that it increases the circulation of the currency thus it creates inflation. |

Debra Tao
Perkone Caldari State
39
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 04:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
Sorry to say it bluntly but i don't think you understand what this is about.
If your Hulk gets destroyed you will lose an asset, you will lose something valuable but the game will not see any isk being removed from that loss. Thus it's not an isk sink... The discussion here is not about if this loss matters to you will if you will have to grind isk a bit longer but if this loss will mitigate the creation of isk or will tend to reduce the inflation. In both cases it won't. |

Debra Tao
Perkone Caldari State
39
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 04:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
can someone help me here ? lol |

Debra Tao
Perkone Caldari State
39
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 04:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
If you lose a Hulk you lose a ship but you don't lose isk so the total amount of money in the game stays the same and is even increased by the insurance payout. I really don't see how you can disagree with me on that. :P |

Debra Tao
Perkone Caldari State
39
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 04:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote: I think Value Loss, especially uninsured items, mods, implants, etc. can be treated the same as any other sink.
When talking about inflation i don't understand that and i am pretty sure you are wrong about that...
Player A finds shinny item and sell it to Player B Player B dies in fire because he is terrible at the game Player A still has the isk that Player B gave to him and can buy stuff with that...
Let's imagine that every sinlge player lose his pod tomorrow, there will be an increased demand for implants and there will be a huge inflation... |

Debra Tao
Perkone Caldari State
40
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 05:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
Tauranon wrote: 3 - whether the playerbase is trending towards fielding assets that require more resources (and thus more cash to denominate the value of such and/or act as reserve for replacements).
That one is pretty easy to answer...
"Hey let's make a faction bs doctrine" "good idea meanwhile i will camp BL so that we cannot fight anyone closer than 40 jumps away" "perfect, let's just feed them with the usual cap ship here and there though"
You gotta love the CFC... |

Debra Tao
Perkone Caldari State
40
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 10:31:00 -
[9] - Quote
OkaskiKali wrote:Confrontation fuels any economy.
CCP should do more to fuel confrontation... I have said this for years now - give the people something to shoot at that will either..
1. Ruin someones day or 2. cause the owner to defend it.
I would like to see an Incursion type areana but with perhaps CCP running these so called live events.
Or perhaps more tounament based areana.... just something to make people want to spend isk.
I have about 5bil in the bank, anything i earn goes into a PVP ship. I personally hate grinding but find incursions a good and enjoyable pass time. I don't think incursions are the reason for increase in PLEX. Its quite possible due to the effect of moon mining. (dont get confused i am talking about moon mining and not the act of reacting).
Role eve back 5 years at a time when small roaming groups were frequent - thats eve at its best and i think the nano nerf stopped a lot of roaming gangs.
Now i use t1 cruisers and destroyers becuase they are cheap and good fun, and with the act of being blobbed its makes taking a more expensive ship out roaming hard to justify.
Perhaps what we need is a different types of fuel for all types of ships and not just capitals..that is an item managed by CCP and not a player based thing or, certain items in game will contain a VAT payment.
You can make a lot of accounts to real life. people will spend money on new items so we need new items - however this may not be as simple as it seems since adding new items means so many different other paths need to be walked.
I think you and Raven are both wrong about that. Whereas in real life consumption is the fuel of the economy in EVE it is not so good.
If everyone start to pvp more then there will be more circulation of isk so there will be inflation, that's for sure whereas most of the source of income are independant from the player's market so at the end it would be bad for mission runners, plexers and guys doing incursions...
In real life we can see that when a country starts to develop quickly there is a big inflation (see : China) but it is still a good thing for that country as unemployment is reduced and the counrty can "catch up" with the more developped countries, there are no "developped countries" in EVE and no unemployment... The reasoning doesn't apply here.
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Debra Tao
Perkone Caldari State
41
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 00:27:00 -
[10] - Quote
Tebb1288 wrote:
I'm not an expert at economics, so please correct me if I am wrong.
The inflation of the price of final products leads to an increase in the price of raw goods used to make the ships, modules, etc being blown up due to more conflict. The increase of price in raw goods leads to more people harvesting those raw goods (miners, PI, etc) creating downward pressure on the price of raw goods. Those raw goods are then turned into more ships, modules, etc, decreasing the price of those final products.
So in the end, an increase in conflict/consumption mainly increases the rate at which isk exchanges hands, but may not necessarily increase the price of goods in the long run as people adjust to the new demand?
As many economic phenomenons there are different factors some which tend to increase the inflation others that will tend to regulate the inflation. Overall though the theory back up the idea the the velocity of a currency is bad for the inflation : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation#Monetarist_view |
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Debra Tao
Perkone Caldari State
41
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 01:30:00 -
[11] - Quote
I totally agree on the fact that velocity of the money is n't a big factor right now if it is a factor at all. But FW is, i think, a pretty good example of the effect. Large sum of money usually in the wallet of traders quickly changing hands... |

Debra Tao
Perkone Caldari State
46
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 23:52:00 -
[12] - Quote
mynnna wrote:
"Appropriate growth" isn't something I can really give a firm answer to because there's a lot of information I'm missing. You do want some level of growth in the isk supply though, as the player supply is always growing. A fixed or even shrinking amount of isk for an ever-increasing (or so we hope) number of players is a bad thing.
I'd note that the two previous suggestions I made would have a greater effect than that. Rewards and time bonuses removes a 5t/mo faucet, replacing them with LP at a 1000:1 ratio means that another 5T/mo (give or take, the ratio for LP redemption isn't always 1000:1) is removed to redeem it. Then there's the estimated 3-6T on top of that.
Eliminating bluebooks would require further iteration on wormholes to add value to replace it...at least some of it. Wormholes aren't my forte and I'm not really sure how much of their income is from the bluebooks vs other items, but an outright and complete removal is probably inadvisable. Partial replacement might be a welcome change from the wormhole crowd, but it's not something I've thought too much about as far as concrete ideas. ;)
This is why i will give you half my votes, because you are actually competent.
Captain Tardbar wrote:
When a player purchases a hulk they are basically converting their isk into potential isk.
You can sell the hulk for 200 million isk potentially.
If you lose a hulk you lose the potential for 200 million isk. It doesn't remove isk from the market, but it does remove the potential isk of the player who owned the ship.
Potential isk is just as important as actual isk. I mean if everyone had 10 hulks and 1 million isk. The hulk wouldn't be worth 1 million since everyone had a hulk.
That's why we need to gank exhumers  |

Debra Tao
Perkone Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2013.01.28 09:03:00 -
[13] - Quote
It's not like almost one page of this thread is about explaining why a ship destruction is actually a faucet... |

Debra Tao
Perkone Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2013.01.28 09:15:00 -
[14] - Quote
lawl
On a more serious note, 200mil is a big sum for some people, i haven't asked for this thread nor write it but it makes sense. Even if the phrasing is kinda ridiculous. |

Debra Tao
Perkone Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2013.01.28 09:23:00 -
[15] - Quote
I usually don't go that deep into the Meta Game Analysis you see. |

Debra Tao
Perkone Caldari State
61
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 03:34:00 -
[16] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Candy Oshea wrote:this is what happens when a mechanical engineer argues with ecomonics major's isn't it Had a good chuckle at this. I thought the economics majors would have been less uppity after 2008. At least when a mechanical engineer stuffs up all that collapses is a bridge...
2008's crisis was a financial one  |

Debra Tao
Perkone Caldari State
61
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 15:35:00 -
[17] - Quote
Candy Oshea wrote:
Me trying to explain why to him, was you guys trying to explain complex economics to me (isk sinks lol)
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